alright, Ill be it that more Christians out there need to become a little more aware of the reality of psychology. There is a “free will” delusion. The problem with the argument that took place on you tube ((http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oI9kI_xc_k&feature=related)) is there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of belief on the part of the CHRISTIAN. The christians argument is that desire or choice is the reason behind belief. Lets consider this odd notion for a moment. If I don’t believe in aliens is that because Im not allowing the aliens into my life? If I don’t believe in Islam is that because Im not allowing Islam into my life? This logic is very poor and made a miserable failure of the debate linked to here. It was becoming obvious she simply did not believe. It had nothing to do with her not wanting to believe or wanting it to be true. The church really needs to get “will” psychology right. Not understanding this psychology is hampering its mission partly. Some parts of what I was watching were somewhat funny, like when she responded with the “God box” remark. Finnaly an arminian gets to see how silly their position on “free will” is. Im not mocking anybody here, but the sillyness of arminian psychology . . . could not have been more ridiculous. It should be obvious from subjective experience.
1. Just because I don’t believe something is true does not mean I DON’T wish it was true.
2. Just because I don’t believe something does not mean I DO wish it.
3. Just because I believe something does not mean I DON’T wish it.
4. Just because I believe something does not mean I DO wish it.
Lets use this logic with Barack Obama and Mccain. Lets fill in the statements Ive made with a fact about the election.
1. Just because I don’t believe Mccain won does not mean I DON’T wish that Mccain won. Does his loss make me a democrat?
2. Just because I don’t believe Mccain won does not mean I DO wish Mccain won. What if I was democrat?
3. If I believe Mccain won that does not mean I DON’T wish that Mccain won. What if I was republican?
4. If I believe Mccain won that does not mean I DO wish that Mccain won. What if I was democrat?
You see. This was one of the problems with this debate.
The second problem with this debate .. . it went off topic. It was sopposed to be about intellegent design and that alone. They went off on tangents about Islam, Christianity, the Bible. I am a Christian but this person did not understand what the central issue was. It was that there was some intelegent designer of the Universe. Whats more the Atheist offered a terrible blow. Now mind you Im Christian, but the atheist challang of “uncreated Creator” is a serious logical challenge. Thats why I would have had them limit the debate (going off focus as it usually did) to whether or not the PERCEIVED universe is intellegently designed. I am dispointed by the attitudes of people in this debate. This debate could have gone a lot better if . . .the christian had been more logical about it. But instead of staying on topic he . . turned it into a tent revival. If he had known psychology better . . . and stayed on topic . . . and I dare say trusted God a little more . .it might have gone much better.
To answer the uncreated Creator question some what, I personal hold the argument that God exists within a higher dimension. Every dimension has its rules. The visible Universe has its rules. The universe that contains this one has . . . rules of its own . . and possibly other dimensions different from our own. I call it the superdimension theory. Creationists , as far as what unites them, are concerned mainly with THIS universe being intelegently designed. caps only for emphasis.
PS; I was also disapointed with the impateince of the atheists. This really is an example of how Christians should not argue. eneough with this free will thing already.
Also I noticed the moderator called the arguments robust . . . ehmm. I don’t think that it went that well. I feel for those who want to truly spread Gods love. I mean I want to see compasion in the world.
I noticed some interesting assumptions coming from the atheist. He asked the christian to let go of fear. He was visibly angry that he was accused of hating Jesus. This should be the wake up call to the “free will” minded Christian. This man simply did not believe. He felt he was “accused” of hating Jesus or God.
on another note the atheist was visibly upset because rather than exposing the “well known” missing links as hoaxes the christian just graphicaly created his own.
Dear fellow Christian, everyone in the debate could have done better. Dear atheist, you are somewhat misunderstood by a culture that does not know much about you. All Christians ever hear is, “oh those God hating atheists”. I find that there must be some that wish there was a God. Why would the atheist be upset that he was “accused” of hating God? rewind . . . why would the atheist be upset he was accused of hating God . . .rewind . . . he felt he was accused of hating God.
a word of caution here though. If creationism is the rational position then evolution is not. Its not rational ultimately to conclude that there was no intelegent design. So its not that the atheist is “not letting” logic seep in LOL. its that the logic simply isn’t there. Its not “they don’t desire”, although that may be true of some of them. Its that . . they don’t know . . at least in this case thats what it appeared to be. And they really did not get a good debate. You all needed to do so much better.
The lady in the crowd was making a terrible argument. Truly this woman was getting flustered by just being there. Now people make computers that break . . .like windows pcs. bad argument then. You cannot conclude “imperfect therefore not designed”.
now by saying “enough with free will” what I mean is “enough Im tired of arminian psychology”. Im not saying I hate arminians. Im saying, please learn psychology dear fellow Christian.
November 8, 2008 at 12:59 am
The reason that the so called debate was “poor”, is because the Bible believer participating in the debate was not qualified to represent the
Genesis text.
Herman Cummings
ephraim7@aol.com
November 11, 2008 at 5:15 am
I think he knew the book of Genesis perhaps better than you think. Im not sure as I don’t know him personally. But this debate was not supposed to be about the book of Genesis. It was supposed to be about whether or not the tangible world is intelligently designed. Yes it is true it does not deserve to be called a debate. But thats not having to do specifically with the book of Genesis. That has to do with something that people of differing religions agree on, that the world is intelligently designed. This is why that one major movie about creationism was able to screen. Many Many scientists are starting to see the light about how the universe came to be. Even some atheists are proposing that we were “seeded” by another race outside of our solar system. But of course that theory has more to do with the creation of this earth. But then, where did the aliens come from. You see Christians are not alone in this particular arena. Many others are having the same theory. This is more about Darwin being wrong and Creationists being right than anything else. But you see this you tube debate completely missed the mark. Now I am a Christian, but thats not what makes me a creationist. My view that the world was designed and created is more broad. Non-Christian scientists are believing this theory too as the evidence for it begins to mount.
November 11, 2008 at 5:20 am
Ill be it most atheists would tend to disagree with creationism (except for this alien thing). But its at least noteworthy that some of them do wish there was a God but still don’t believe in one. Im open to learning more about these atheists myself as a don’t often run across someone who truly does not believe in a Creator of any kind.
November 11, 2008 at 5:32 am
What makes a persons believe uniquely Christian is the kind of God they worship. The Christian God. At least thats what differs a Christian belief system from a non-Christian belief system. But being a Christian is more than just believing. More importantly, its about having a loving relationship with Jesus and ones fellow man plus a realization that Jesus is God. We Love Jesus in terms of him being God and not just a man because His true identity is that He is God come in the flesh. I still debate with myself over this, but this is where I think I currently stand concerning what beliefs make someone a Christian. Basically if you don’t love Jesus (as God) or your fellow man your not a Christian. The most important thing about being a Christian I think is compassion. Thats what all about being a Christian, which is not what the debate was supposed to be about.
November 11, 2008 at 5:37 am
I’m am certain of the fact that Jesus is God. But that question may be a matter of unprovable faith. Some things are beyond the scientific method. But thankfully Creationism is not one of those things.
You might have the theory that there are colors we cannot see or that animals are not concious. You can have a plausible but hard to prove idea. Thats were things become a matter of opinion. In my view Creationism is not an opinion only issue. I think it can be proven.
November 11, 2008 at 5:39 am
This of course does not mean that I don’t have very strongly and sturdy beliefs (or you may call them opinions). Well enough of my talk, its your turn if you wish.